The Email Deliverability Podcast

Mr. Deliverability

July 05, 2023 Luke Avedon & Ed Forteau Season 1 Episode 1
Mr. Deliverability
The Email Deliverability Podcast
More Info
The Email Deliverability Podcast
Mr. Deliverability
Jul 05, 2023 Season 1 Episode 1
Luke Avedon & Ed Forteau

First episode of the show!  Luke grills his co-host on all things email deliverability.

Show Notes Transcript

First episode of the show!  Luke grills his co-host on all things email deliverability.

00:00.00
lukeavedon
Hello my name is Luke avadon by trade I'm just another boring software developer. However I'm on a mission to trick people and to give me free consulting via highly embarrassing podcast interviews. So I'm here with an actual expert. Ah, an expert on email tech email outreach email deliverability who also happens to be 1 of my favorite people in the whole world ed for tow.

00:30.60
Ed Forteau
Didn't realize Luke that this was a trick to get free consulting I don't know if I do I'd have agreed to do this if I didn't own that.

00:36.47
lukeavedon
It absolutely is absolutely so um and why don't you introduce yourself tell us what you do give us the Batman Origin story

00:44.70
Ed Forteau
Sure I am a email marketing strategist actually a marketing strategist that got involved with the email deliverability because I ran into a problem with my own email deliverability deliverability. I was doing a test I was in a beta group for a new service where they combined email ringless voicemail and text messaging all in 1 which was nice. Those things happen all the time now. But back then that wasn't the case. And I had set up all of my email accounts 7 of them to send out an email every day for seven days just to test the system on 7 different email accounts fired that bad boy up waited for the responses to come in I waited unfortunately till the end of the week go check my emails and I couldn't find any of them in the primary inbox or anywhere else to be for that matter. Ah when I finally did look I did see I saw one out of 49 emails that was in spam I contacted their tech support and said hey what's going on I didn't get any of the emails that were sent.

01:35.97
lukeavedon
Oh wow.

01:48.90
Ed Forteau
They said well the emails were sent. Ah so they were certainly delivered but I go what difference does that make if if I didn't receive them and that's when I learned the difference between delivery and deliverability.

01:57.23
lukeavedon
Right.

02:04.34
Ed Forteau
And I started going on a quest to like try to solve this problem I cooked up with my business partner who had been doing this for over eight years for a company called melegen um, and he was a lead email deliverability analyst for them and he really taught me everything I know.

02:14.24
lukeavedon
Again.

02:22.97
Ed Forteau
Since then we've been on this quest to help other businesses solve the same problem that they didn't really know existed till now email deliverability is starting to become pretty popular.

02:34.44
lukeavedon
Okay, so exciting stuff. Um Ed and I are actually going to do a podcast together a series of interviews where we get all the best minds who will talk to us in email deliverability and I'm going to suck their brain dry as. And Ed will help me and we'll get all the secrets out of them and give it to you. The folks at home. So ed is going to be the first victim to be grilled Ed so you're going to make sure the hot seat is safe before we subject anyone else to it. So ah, I'm going to barrage you with tons of stupid questions about email deliverability.

03:06.66
Ed Forteau
Tell us all your secrets. Yeah, that's fine.

03:08.54
lukeavedon
And okay, yes, okay so easy one is it doesn't matter Really how great our emails are right? So if we don't get them into the inbox. We can't do anything.

03:21.19
Ed Forteau
Ah, true, nothing else. Matters if the emails aren't getting delivered I have a lot of people will reach out to me and they say well we're working on the copy. We're working on segmentation working on this and that I go your emails are going into spam that other stuff doesn't matter. Got to get him in the primary a box first.

03:37.20
lukeavedon
Okay, so while often when I buy tools. They'll say oh there's 99% delivery guaranteed so is delivery and deliverability the same thing in the industry.

03:49.18
Ed Forteau
2 different things delivery. All that means is that the email was delivered to the recipient's server. The server is not your inbox once they get to the server then they're sorted and then they're sent over to your inbox. This is important because a lot of companies do say 99% delivery. But if you look at deliverability. What's the name of the tool. It's email tool tester tests these email so email service providers all the time and the range is quite rot wide.

04:10.10
lukeavedon
Um, okay.

04:19.46
lukeavedon
Um, okay.

04:21.64
Ed Forteau
You can get a deliverability in the approximately 95% range on the high end all the way down to under 50% on the low end and some of these email service providers. So you have to be careful which one you choose.

04:26.19
lukeavedon
On.

04:34.29
lukeavedon
Okay, so it is sort of deceptive when they say 99% delivery do you think it are email service providers good about keeping your deliverability high.

04:40.53
Ed Forteau
Very.

04:49.20
Ed Forteau
Um, that's a good question. They they they need to do that to stay in business. But ah, they they do their best if someone is having a problem with email deliverability. They'll tend to put them on lower sender I P so that they keep their average up.

04:59.21
lukeavedon
Um, you know.

05:05.80
Ed Forteau
Ah, but they're also really good at gaslighting their customers and saying well everything was to be fine. Your emails are getting delivered. Maybe you should check our blog post to see if there's anything that you could do on your end to fix it and usually it's a sender I p problem.

05:22.77
lukeavedon
A.

05:24.57
Ed Forteau
And most people don't know to ask about that. They used to change the sender ips on a request. They don't do that anymore and I think one of the big reasons they don't do it is because people just have no idea that the sender ips.

05:32.24
lukeavedon
Again.

05:40.40
Ed Forteau
Ah, or make a huge difference in whether your emails are going to get delivered or not.

05:42.50
lukeavedon
Okay, that's interesting because I remember when I used to dabble in the space. It was incredibly easy and I did not give deliverability a second thought doing ah email outreach. Um, you know even I now the co-host of the email deliverability podcast himself. I sent a friend a personal email from my Gmail and it went to spam. It was highly embarrassing and it's just incredible that ah things are that sensitive. Although I guess it makes sense because so much email is spam.

06:13.16
Ed Forteau
It it happens. Um I like to think that all of my emails reach the primary inbox but there are times occasionally when they don't and you have to keep monitoring so we would monitor all the time but we're always checking. To ensure 100 % deliverability especially the 1 to 1 emails. You don't want to get into a a situation where you've done your marketing. You're now in a conversation with someone that you're about to close you send a book proposal and it doesn't get there. It goes into spam or you're following up. And their follow. The followup message doesn't get received. That's the time when you have to make sure that your email deliverability is at 100 %

06:56.20
lukeavedon
Right? exactly? So ah, circle back to some basic questions so does open rates is that something you track is that just a vanity metric I know it can be difficult at least in cold email to track open rates and not very reliable. What are your views on open rate tracking.

07:12.58
Ed Forteau
Well, a lot of people say that open rate is ah is not a very good indicator. We still use it it as an indicator and when Apple had the ios 15 update when they opened up all the emails. Everyone thought that's going to corrupt the data for email open rates and so.

07:21.00
lukeavedon
Um, okay.

07:31.55
Ed Forteau
We thought that would be the case too. Actually it was a nothing burger. It didn't change the open rate data at all the open rates remain pretty much the same. We didn't see ah a spike in an increase because Apple was opening the um up it is a really good indicator as to a leading indicator as to.

07:44.97
lukeavedon
Um, ah.

07:49.24
Ed Forteau
Whether things are going well or you're running into a problem. It's the first thing that you can see if you see ah, especially a dramatic drop in your open rates that you have a problem but before the dramatic dramatic drop. There's usually a steady decline which is an indication early indication of a problem that you need to look into.

08:00.44
lukeavedon
Um, if.

08:08.36
Ed Forteau
A lot of people just ignore that.

08:08.70
lukeavedon
Interesting, interesting. So if I have a large in-house list of opt in customers I'm emailing to quite a bit and over time I'm seeing open rates drop that is a warning flag that something bad is about to happen or.

08:21.87
Ed Forteau
It it is most of the time people make the excuse of oh my list is bigger and that's the reason why that's the problem like usually that's not necessarily the case we have clients that have email lists of over two million people and we're able to help them get open rates in the sixty seventy even eighty percent range

08:41.77
lukeavedon
Wow wow that is amazing. Okay, so you mentioned ah previously that you had something that was to me personally before we start recording ah was like the 83 rule

08:56.57
lukeavedon
Sort of like the eighty twenty rule but had something to do with open rates eight thirty eight

08:58.78
Ed Forteau
Yeah, 8 8 30 rule eight thirty and this comes from ah lots of discussions with the heads of email deliverability for the different sender ips email service providers I'm sorry um and that is within the first hour

09:10.80
lukeavedon
Sure.

09:15.32
Ed Forteau
You need to have an 8% open rate and an average open rate of 30% or higher and that's what the mailbox providers are looking for so a lot of these companies will look at those matrix some companies look at the 30% some companies look at the 8% some companies look at both.

09:18.98
lukeavedon
Um, um.

09:31.63
lukeavedon
Came.

09:33.26
Ed Forteau
And if you aren't hitting those numbers then you are a target to be placed on a lower quality sender Ip which means that now you're going to have even more difficult time getting your emails in the primary inbox.

09:39.21
lukeavedon
While.

09:44.86
lukeavedon
Wow. Okay, so they will actually move me to a lower quality sender I p if I'm using a large email service provider. Okay.

09:52.26
Ed Forteau
It doesn't matter the size of the email service provider If if you're not hitting those metrics. You're hurting their average for open rates and being and so that company or esp esp is being judged by the mailbox providers as to how.

10:01.89
lukeavedon
Um, ah.

10:10.32
Ed Forteau
Good or how how ah how good the quality of their services and the level of their customers and so then they'll say well because their open rates are lower. We're going to downgrade their ability to get into the primary inbox of our customers. We have to always remember that.

10:17.14
lukeavedon
Um, again.

10:30.63
Ed Forteau
Mailbox Providers look at the people that are used their users as their customers and we're kind of a guest that is going to visit their customers and they only want invited guests and quality quality and qualified guests engaging with their customers.

10:49.21
lukeavedon
Okay, that makes sense that is disturbing though as 8% the first hour and then 30% open rate overall which is pretty high so ah, moving to more nerd stuff. Can you explain? oh right? no.

10:58.66
Ed Forteau
Yep, actually not that high I get I yet I usually personally get an open rate somewhere in the 20 to 25% range in the first hour and then seventy five to eighty four percent average.

11:11.93
lukeavedon
Um, wow.

11:16.24
Ed Forteau
So it can be done. You just have to do the right things.

11:18.47
lukeavedon
Wow. Okay, so you can't really separate from ah writing emails that people want to read and open. There's no Ninja hack that gets away from actually sending emails people want to read so you get those measure.

11:29.75
Ed Forteau
Yeah, you don't you want to make sure you're sending emails that people actually want and that comes from segmentation and understanding your list and that's something that we can talk about either on this show or our future show.

11:37.86
lukeavedon
Um.

11:42.99
lukeavedon
Okay, very cool. So what do you think about Spf Dk I am demark the authentication protocols.

11:51.92
Ed Forteau
Well the the way those are set up is to to determine that you are the authorized sender of the email so spoofing and phishing attacks is the is the reason why they put those in place to help prevent them again to protect their customers. So.

12:00.95
lukeavedon
Okay.

12:10.99
Ed Forteau
They're expecting you to secure your email account with sspfdkm and even Demark now. The key here is that it's not consistent that your emails may have a problem and that's the keyword being may. If. You don't have sspfand dkim in place and this is the inconsistency inconsistency that people see a lot when they're when they're handing their own email deliverability if it's as simple as if you have these records in place and they're.

12:35.83
lukeavedon
E.

12:47.41
Ed Forteau
Properly authenticated your emails go to spam. That's 1 thing but if they're not properly authenticated. They don't go to spam that's another thing but if sometimes you're penalized and sometimes you aren't that creates something that's difficult to track.

13:04.85
lukeavedon
Interesting writes because I used to when I was first learning to code write software that would go through and make sure stuff was set up properly in people's records and I found that almost ah.

13:19.21
lukeavedon
Dk I m was often not set up properly but Demark like no one had Demark set up even though this was maybe four years ago or something. Um, do you find? That's still the case that people are really lazy I guess about setting up dmark or they do it wrong. And they're scared to so they just don't do it.

13:36.15
Ed Forteau
Well some apps did not require dk m um authentication and so they had to catch up. But if you think about the reason why we have it in place think of it like a security system sspfdk I m are like locking your doors and windows. Demark is like having a security system that it's on that checks to make sure that no one breaches your doors or windows if there is a breach meaning you're not properly authenticated with sspf or dkim then either nothing can happen.

13:54.88
lukeavedon
Okay. Right.

14:10.92
Ed Forteau
Which there's 3 different settings nothing happens or your emails go into quarantine or your emails are blocked and what we see a lot is that people will add demark they may not have their spf or gk I am properly authenticated and then all of a sudden all of their emails are going to spam.

14:16.44
lukeavedon
Oh.

14:30.69
Ed Forteau
Because they set it up for reject or quarantine. So the best way to do it is you a make sure your dk I m and s spf records are properly authenticated you turn on Demark you set it to nothing and make sure. Okay, we're still getting our emails.

14:44.19
lukeavedon
Um, okay.

14:48.82
Ed Forteau
And you test it by switching it to quarantine and as long as you keep getting your emails that means that your email your Dk M and s spf records are properly authenticated most of the time ever. There's no definitive answers here. There's it's it's in this is what makes.

15:00.29
lukeavedon
Of nave.

15:08.65
Ed Forteau
Email deliverability So tricky if if there were definitive things then it would make it a lot easier but there really aren't.

15:14.96
lukeavedon
Interesting. So that whole quarantine block or none that's related to demark. Yeah.

15:21.96
Ed Forteau
Correct and sometimes the email email service Providers I'm sorry the mailbox providers will look at that and either it works to your benefit or to your detriment. This is really, we've seen this a lot with outlook.

15:28.85
lukeavedon
A.

15:41.61
Ed Forteau
Where outlook says that they don't factor that into their their emails being delivered to their their users but we've seen in our own clients that if we turn it on if they're having email deliverability problems to outlook that sometimes. Turning on Demark to quarantine or reject fixes the problem sometimes it doesn't again. That's one of those things where we don't have consistent results. It's just a lot of testing but you have to know what to test? yeah.

16:04.50
lukeavedon
Um, oh wow.

16:10.77
lukeavedon
Sort of an art to it. Interesting. So say I'm a business with a very large email list um of customers their opt ins and I try to send them a newsletter every once in a while. So but what if I have 200000 up to names you know and. They're just sitting there and I have not actually emailed them in a year or two can I just start emailing them again. Is that going to affect anything with my deliverability.

16:34.90
Ed Forteau
You should you? You should absolutely not just start mailing them again. Not unless you want to absolutely ruin your domain reputation emails. Go bad at a rate of about 2% per month.

16:46.77
lukeavedon
O more.

16:48.17
Ed Forteau
So. The first thing you need to do is validate that you have good emails use a third party to do that. 1 of the best services for that is clear out and then you only want to include emails that are verified in the past we could go verified unverified guess. And but we can't do that anymore. Ah because the mailbox providers are so sensitive only send to verified emails and in fact, what you may want to do because not all of the email verification services are accurate. You may want to run it through a second one just to make sure that you clean. It. Only descent to verified emails.

17:29.61
lukeavedon
Wow. So even if these are my opt in list or double opt in I still want to go through that whole process and make sure all these emails are still Verified. So I'm not ah hitting email boxes that no longer exist and. Getting problems with my deliverability.

17:47.65
Ed Forteau
Correct and you also have ah another problem because they haven't heard from you in quite a while so you email these people people forget that they've opted it to a list 5 minutes after they've opted in if you've gone months without reaching out to them. There's going to be a very high spam conflate rate.

17:52.62
lukeavedon
Um, right.

18:04.29
Ed Forteau
And least for the first email or 2 which could trigger your email service provider to downgrade your sender ips and it can hurt and most likely will hurt your domain reputation and you'll also get a lot of people that will opt out of your email because they don't remember ever signing up again. That can hurt your email deliverability thus downgrading your sender ips from your email service provider so you have to be really careful about that.

18:33.72
lukeavedon
Interesting. Okay so is there anything I mean it's kind of incredible If. You think how valuable ah email list of customers I mean that's a business is in some ways most valuable asset the relationship with all these people so I can imagine if I am not able to email them. I Mean is there anything more profitable than fixing one of these email deliverability problems. Especially if I have a large customer list and they're not getting delivered.

19:00.95
Ed Forteau
Ah, no, it's the first thing that you should be doing and we've had clients that have had fairly large lists that haven't that weren't dormant. They didn't mail them where we'll clean up the list. And then send out emails in smaller batches so we didn't run into a problem with large a large percentage of spam complaints. But those lists are worth tens of thousands of dollars if there's a sudden sales cur. So ah, a sudden sales. Um.

19:16.14
lukeavedon
Boom.

19:33.10
Ed Forteau
Surge can happen just by reactivating your list if you need like a cash right now and you're sitting on a big email list. There is no better source for quick cash than reaching out to your subscribers.

19:38.27
lukeavedon
Um, rights.

19:49.30
lukeavedon
Right? Wow wow. Okay, definitely a important skill to get that fixed and get those emails delivered so um, changing gears I remember when ah outreaching to people. And I found there were these Facebook groups of salespeople who were warm up new email domains. So or they would get a new email account hook it up to their domain and it would be you know business Gmail account and everyone in the group was supposed to email each other and open. Email so I don't know if that's has to do with ah Gmail's internal tracking or some other metrics. So in theory if they did this for a few weeks. This would make the chance of their ah cold emails getting delivered much higher What do you think about these warmup groups and I've also noticed that. A lot of software now includes hey we'll do some warming up for you. Um I don't know if that's the same thing as these warm up groups or what are your thoughts on that is it a scam.

20:50.70
Ed Forteau
Well I'm I'm not all that excited about warmup groups because now you're depending upon somebody else to do their part to open and either click or apply your email and now that human factor can be a problem.

21:01.52
lukeavedon
Okay.

21:07.14
Ed Forteau
There are services out there that will automatically warm up your emails. Ah some of them are better than others. Frankly, you don't want to go to the cheapest provider because they're going to cut corners and it's not hard for the email service providers to detect. That you're using a warming service and they don't like that they don't like any artificial methods for warming up your email account and frankly they don't like marketers sending emails to their customers. Anyway, that's the reason why that eight twenty rule is in place.

21:34.43
lukeavedon
Is.

21:40.31
Ed Forteau
Anytime They see a surge of emails coming in that's indicator that that's a marketer sending emails to their customers and they start looking at those emails more closely so going back to your question. Yes, there are some good services out there for warming up your emails. I've already reached out to a couple of them so that they'll come on the show and explain the service that they provide and what makes them different than other warming services because people really need to know the difference and it's It's just the most expensive.

22:03.90
lukeavedon
Um, nice.

22:15.17
Ed Forteau
Is doesn't mean it's the best. It's how they approach warming.

22:18.20
lukeavedon
Okay, so what? what are some? you can you give us an overview of some of the different techniques of how they approach warming.

22:28.61
Ed Forteau
Well, the the key is ramping the warming up so you can start off by immediately saying I want you to send out one ah hundred emails or 200 emails a day to try to get this email account warmed up as fast as possible. Well, that's unnatural and and the mailboss providers can see that.

22:30.25
lukeavedon
Okay.

22:46.27
Ed Forteau
So Some of these companies don't allow you to adjust the settings because they know you can be your worst enemy because you just want to get the emails out right away so they'll slow the process down. Ah the way they connect to your mailbox provider also makes a difference whether and and also. For you to be able to determine What are these warmup email accounts that you're sending to versus the actual emails that you're sending to for business those get separated with some services and not so that you're you're not being confused is this. This email someone that I'm trying to reach out to via cold email or is this somebody. That's part of the service.

23:25.12
lukeavedon
Me.

23:31.76
lukeavedon
Okay, that makes sense that makes sense that is more sophisticated. Um, so on track with called email outreach. Do you find that Gmail versus outlook ah is that a big deal I've heard that. Ah, most people use Gmail I mean the percentage of the market of business emails. Ah the percentage of people that use Gmail is enormous. Um, so if you're a salesperson what you should do is not use gmail but instead use outlook because most there's some theory that most are your prospects. On Gmail. So if you're sending coldmails from gmail it's gmail to Gmail and there's more internal data for them to quickly figure out. Oh ah, this 1 customer keeps emailing our other customers and those people aren't opening the emails. So instead if you use outlook it's a smaller ecosystem. And you're more often going outside of outlook when you're reaching out and emailing people so you don't get flagged as an oddie as quickly is that a just a crazy theory or do you think there's something to that or what's your thoughts on outlook versus gmail.

24:41.67
Ed Forteau
Sounds sounds like a crazy theory to me. It used to be that Outlook had better deliverability than gmail. It's pretty even right now and you have to kind of consider the difficulty in getting the account set up and maintaining the accounts.

24:45.28
lukeavedon
Okay.

25:00.78
Ed Forteau
Gmail is a lot easier to set up an outlook when you run into problems with Outlook you will reach out to their customer support which can be a bit of a challenge. They also have some internal issues where at times outlook emails don't get delivered. To other Outlook users and then you have to kind of troubleshoot that and sometimes it's a matter of their Ai just flagging a sender Ip that that's a shared sender Ip that you're using and um because your emails are rotated through different sender ips.

25:20.70
lukeavedon
Her.

25:38.20
Ed Forteau
You could have a fairly high percentage of your emails that are going to other Outlook users going to spam.

25:46.21
lukeavedon
Interesting. Okay, okay, that's good to know. Um, so I will stop saying that Outlook is so much better necessarily than gmail. So.

25:56.79
Ed Forteau
Used to be used to be better now. There's really not any big difference. 1 other thing withoutlook is that you can get a dedicated sender ip so if you're if you're emailing um to known people known users.

25:59.36
lukeavedon
You think really.

26:14.14
Ed Forteau
A 1 to 1 situation then a um ah a dedicated sender ip is valuable. But if you're doing cold email. You need the protection of shared sender ips.

26:31.40
lukeavedon
Okay, that makes sense interesting. What about if you're going to stick with Gmail google postmaster tools. Do you use those those help in any way I'm not really that familiar with them.

26:42.50
Ed Forteau
We always set that up for clients even if they're doing B Two B but it's really designed for B to C That's what they pretty much track and that's very valuable for looking at the feedback loop like what is the spam rate that you're getting.

26:51.53
lukeavedon
Um, okay.

27:00.31
Ed Forteau
Ah, for spam but spam complaint rate that you're getting is one of the ones that metrics that we look at all the time with Google Postmaster tools.

27:10.18
lukeavedon
Okay, so do use Google Postmaster tools for your campaigns, especially your opt in campaigns to um consumers from your normal business. Okay.

27:19.58
Ed Forteau
Absolutely, it's essential. It's essential. In fact, let's say that I usually get this question. How often should I email my list and the the answers that most people give as well as often as you can or every day or 3 times a week know those answers are correct.

27:36.30
lukeavedon
Rape.

27:38.84
Ed Forteau
None of them. There's 2 things you want to check? you need to understand the relationship you have with your list and that you are. It's all based on data. So what's your open rate is it over 30% but what is your spam complaint rate is it under. Point one. What is your bounce rate is it under 2% and what is your unsubscribe rate. Is it between point 5 and point two so you're okay to continue mailing as long as you're under those metrics once you go above those metrics.

28:14.66
lukeavedon
Oh.

28:17.77
Ed Forteau
You need to like really control how often you mail. For example, if I were running a promotion and I decided to email you 3 times in a day because I want to make sales and I I do I send out the first email I send out the second email I'm getting some sales.

28:21.87
lukeavedon
Um, wow.

28:36.82
Ed Forteau
So more sales so that's good I've sent out a third email I get more sales but what's happening is you're also getting more unsubscribes and more spam complaints which is hurting you and the people that are doing the unsubscribing are typically. Your most engaged subscribers. The people that are spending the most money with you so you're trading a dollar that I'll make today for $200 that I could make tomorrow. It just doesn't make any sense but from a marketing standpoint. It's a good marketing policy.

28:54.96
lukeavedon
Man.

29:06.48
lukeavedon
Um, rates.

29:10.80
Ed Forteau
From an email marketing standpoint. It's a terrible email marketing policy.

29:14.73
lukeavedon
Market Interesting. Wow. Okay so I think I've extracted a lot of information from your brain I Ah I think that was a pretty full extraction. Um, really yeah, exactly there was a lot of really good information. Thank you so much and um.

29:22.75
Ed Forteau
Have to get some brain vitamins now.

29:32.28
Ed Forteau
You're very welcome.

29:33.42
lukeavedon
I will leave you with 1 email story. This actually happened to me about two weeks ago I'm also trying to interview um authors of programming books as a programmer and I had put off reaching out to people and I was all shy and um, my my wife was out of town for. Ah, business trip I was taking care of my 3 year old he has a imaginary friend named Mr Camera is kind of on and Mr Camera is in his room. Mr. Camera is always saying really weird things. Ah and we're like how could Mr. Camera possibly know that so I put. James down my son for a nap I was like okay I finally have some time to myself this weekend I'm going to just reach out to a bunch of programming book authors get some podcast interviews. It's gonna be great but I put it off and they just played take a genesis instead by myself then his nap was over and I felt really. Low and dejected and I was like I can't believe I was too pathetic to ah, do some outreach and instead I just played video games. So but I'm always put on a good mood when I take him out for his nap. Um, go to meet him and so I walk into his room and he just jumps up and he says papa Mr. Camera told me to tell you. He sees something in you that you don't even see in yourself. They said what and he repeatedly said Mr. Camera says he sees something in you that you don't even see in yourself and then we were playing catch later and he just repeated it again. So I thought that was pretty freaky. Pretty weird.

31:07.63
lukeavedon
Um, so maybe Mr Camera will be a guest at some point on the podcast but I'm excited to get other guests and have you helped me grill them to get all this ah amazing info and email. This will be good. So thank you so much great. Thank you so much and.

31:10.90
Ed Forteau
Um.

31:19.76
Ed Forteau
It'll be fun. Well well thanks for having me Luke looking forward to doing this with you often.

31:25.53
lukeavedon
Yeah, can't wait for the next one. Okay so long.